How to sell without selling your soul

Tom is here to give us all a really good introduction to selling and Tom was actually the first speaker that we ever had at a Cowork Crew. It’s really beautiful
full circle moment. Almost a year later.

Oh, yeah. Is it more. Yeah. I can’t believe that was a year ago. Well, the talks a lot better now. So you’ll be pleased.

Can we all give Tom a big round of applause.
Thank you. Okay. Yes. As Penni said, that’s my second time doing it for Cowork Crew, it’s like the third or fourth, fourth, fourth or fifth, fifth time I’ve done this and this is yeah really fun. And if I trip over this, well enjoy that. So I’ve been in digital marketing for 15 years, nearly 16 years. The first half of that roughly was as a salesperson, as an account manager.

And I never really got on with the kind of typical sales tactics and ways that people used to tell me how to sell, because it just wasn’t my vibe. I’m not a very, sort of bro-y sort of person. So this is my way of selling, which is how to get really good at selling without selling your soul.

So to give you a little bit of context, my story is that in 2009 and this is some stuff to ground you in 2009, if you remember these things. Mark Zuckerberg says Facebook privacy is central in 2009, and I think he’s proven that that’s definitely the philosophy. Yeah. So this is what was happening. Did anyone buy Bitcoin in 2009?

Right. You wouldn’t be here, would you. No! So yeah, I got a job. My first ever sales job in a call center selling motorbike insurance. I didn’t know anything about motorbikes. Still don’t. So it was just rubbish. It was like, get on the phone and all day and just really cold. You are not a human being. You are a machine that needs to just be on the phone all day long.

Hated it. So I got fired and I also got dumped by my girlfriend at the time at exactly the same time. Basically two days later. Okay. It’s cause I got fired, that I got dumped. Just worked that out. Okay? So I moved up to Leeds, so my best mate lived in Leeds. I moved to Leeds, we moved in together.

And this is Leeds. It was nice. Fine. The first thing I did was like, right, I’m going to just try to make some money. So I got wheelie bin stickers and I got a pack, a nice little display pack and went round door to door and knocked on doors and said, I’ve got these stickers, you want to buy them?

And everyone was like what are you doing? Have you got a license? And I’d run away and stuff like that. But I did make some money. Then I tried to become a professional magician. Which kind of, like, semi-professional, I actually did get some gigs and learned to magic and stuff. And that was something that I actually got paid to do.
But it was all about like just walking into restaurants and be like, hi I’m a magician. And they were like, okay, fine, give it a go. I didn’t get paid and then they might sometimes, but actually that’s quite good. We could pay you a bit of money. So it was a bit hustly, a little bit like, what am I gonna do, and I was like I’m just gonna get a proper job.

I can’t be doing all this kind of weird stuff anymore. So I went on Gumtree to find a proper job. And I found these guys, Sam and James. They’re really nice. They’re a bit dorky. Really nice people, though. And they said, we are really good at web design and SEO, but we aren’t really good at talking to humans.

We need someone to make sales for us. We can’t pay you, but we’ll give you 15% of whatever you sell. So I was like, okay, web design and SEO. Make sales. This was the first time I’d ever heard of like, SEO, really, or web design. I don’t know, how hard can it be? they were not really good by the way, they were not at all really good at those things, they were terrible at those things, I just didn’t know that. So I was enthusiastic. I was a little bit cocky, but, I was also a bit naive. So if you don’t get those references, they’re very accurate words to describe each of those people. That’s for you, Chris. So I just got on the phone, got my Yellow Pages, and went out door to door into places like restaurants and bars and all sorts of places, just like hi websites, we do websites. Remember this was 2009, so a lot of people didn’t have mobile websites especially. Certainly like not websites. It was kind of easy in theory. Not so much. People were like, no, does anyone know who that is? Yeah. Not a nice, not a nice man to be up against if you’re trying to persuade them to do something. So yeah, they were like, no no, no no no no.
3 weeks later, all the no’s, no everywhere, you shall pass. And then a yes one yes I got yes. Yeah. It was such a good feeling, that little yes gave me 225 pounds in 70 hours, which is £3.21 an hour. But I was in Leeds, so it’s all good. I moved back to Kent, where I lived before I moved to Leeds and beefed up my CV and kind of like, got this job with this agency, digital marketing agency.

But the boss was like, this guy, he was a swindler. And he got me looking at all these books. I don’t know if any of you’ve ever read any of these books. There’s some good stuff in them, but I don’t know if you can see a bit of a theme in the authors, maybe, like a bit one track, right? Little bit old, little bit white.

No offense to white people. I’m sure you are lovely. And, you just, like, get on the phone. Just get on the phone. Don’t take no for an answer. 100 calls a day was to target. 100 calls a day in web design and SEO, digital marketing. They don’t even know what it is. I have to take time to explain it.

I have to ask if they even need it. Who knows? So if I say salesperson, what words and images come to mind? Like typically a sales person, right? You kind of like pushy, maybe selfish, manipulative, cocky. All of these other words that you can read. And I was just like, I just don’t think this is my way.

I couldn’t do it. Right, you’re gonna be a salesperson! And I was like, I don’t want to be a sales person in that same way. So I thought there must be another way. One second, I thought I had the wrong slide then I’m good. There must be a better way. And I think there is a better way.

So I think this kind of is summarised by I’m not trying to rob you, I’m trying to help you. And you genuinely have to be trying to help people. So the better way is, be an expert. Exercise objectivity. I’m going to talk about each one of these in turn. Give them some space. Ask thoughtful questions. Nice but strict.

Don’t hide your objections. Apply your own rules. Lead and reassure, and then, feel comfortable with your values. So these are the things that I will go through now and sort of show you how I approach sales and how I approach selling. So firstly, none of this works. None of this works if you don’t believe in yourself, you have to be so convinced of your own value in the world that you can then do certain things that you might not otherwise have been able to do.
For example, if you have a child who needs medicine and you have to give them injection, use a doctor. But what I mean is like if in theory, if someone is looking from the outside and could only see like you trying to wrestle a screaming child, then we’re like what are you doing? It’s terrible, but really, you’re doing something bad because you know it’s good for them, so sometimes it’s going to feel a little bit like that.

But if you believe in yourself and your value and your ability to do good, then you’ll be fine. So this guy, this is what it’s all about. Let’s begin. So first be an expert. So selling is more about being an expert advisor than it is about being a pushy sort of get the ‘yes’ at all costs.
So if you’re an expert at what you do and you know what needs to be done, and you can understand that from your client’s point of view, obviously we all aspire to that, right? But there are plenty of people who see selling as the bit before that. It’s almost like once I’ve got the sale, then I’ll be objective and tell them the truth and be an expert and say yes to that, but no to that, and be able to challenge them in different ways.

This is, this is the worst stock picture I’ve ever seen in my entire life. And it haunts me, and Maret’s seen it. And look what she’s doing. She’s hiding. So this is I’m sorry about this, but I enjoy inflicting it on other people. This is a representation of knee pain that I found once. But it highlights a little example, which is a doctor as an estate agent.

Imagine you went to see your doctor and they were like, yes, let’s do it. 50% off. I have a bad knee. Great, we’ll replace that no worries. Replace both, might as well. You’re going to run out of the door. So doctors diagnose before treating. They follow ethical guidelines. They focus on patient health and not sales targets.

So what I’m saying is they’re objective. They won’t say yes if you ask for the yes. Even if you’re like, here’s the money, I’m ready to buy, they’ll say, hold on a minute I’m gonna use my expertise to work out what actually is needed here, not just take the money and do whatever you say. So they’re not needy. That’s really important.

Don’t be needy for the sale. You are the prize. So you are the prize to be won in that when you go to see a doctor, they come to you. You go to the doctor and say, I need your expertise. I need you to help me figure out my problem, not just sell to me, sell something. Sell whatever it is that you can.

So if you’re the right fit and if you can solve the problem, and if you can help them, and if you can create value, then you are the prize, and you don’t need a salesperson mode, because that’s going to come out in the discovery of that relationship. So you don’t need to think, I need to get the yes, I need to get the yes.

I need to get yes. What you need to think is, is this the right relationship for both of us? So that’s where objectivity comes in, which is, if you’re desperate for the sale and you really need the money and you really need the sale it’s really hard to be objective. So you kind of need to pretend that you’re a mediator between the two businesses.

So pretend you’re a mediator. So you’ve got your business here or your thing to sell and the client or the buyer here. And instead of you being here saying, I want this thing and I want you to buy it and I want that outcome, blah, blah, blah. And they’re going, I want this outcome, and okay we’ll negotiate.

Instead, what you’re doing is you’re staying here, and you’re looking at that one and looking at that one saying, is this correct? Is this right for them? Is it right for them? Is there anything here that shouldn’t be happening? Is there anything in that needs to be resolved first? And detaching yourself from the needs to get the yes here will allow you and actually make you more likely to get
the yes, when you are selling, and they will feel that they’ll feel that objectivity and be like, this person really wants the right thing, instead of just trying to get me to say yes. And we’ve all been sold to we’ve all felt that feeling of like, you make, yes, okay. Right. Gross. People hate it.

So detach yourself from the outcome and by detaching yourself from the outcome, you’re more likely to get the sale. Happy days. Then give them some space. So the worst thing ever is right. You get if someone’s selling to you and they go, do you want that then? Should we say yes? Should we go ahead?

So much advice is like get the yes at the same time as the call. Right. Get the yes. Don’t stop until you’ve got the yes. or get the answer. Get the deal. I just don’t think so. Not when you’re selling important stuff anyway. You need to give them some space, because if it’s not the right fit, you don’t want that piece of work.

You do not want that nightmare client, that headache, whatever it is. So give them the space and make sure they know you’re giving them the space as in say, great, I had a really good call giving you the outline of the thing. Now I’m going to let you go away for a few days. Think about it, and we’ll follow up after.

If you say so. Yeah, that’s all good. Do you want to do it? They’ll be like, I don’t know yet. Mostly anyway, so you’re vetting them as much as they’re vetting you. So you need some space to think about it. Right. You need to digest what’s happened. You also need to ask thoughtful questions during and after.

So for example, why are you doing this and not something else? What do you mean telling me I should consider something else? You have this thing to sell. Yeah, I know, but it might not be right for you. So it’s probably good that we have a discussion to make sure. They might be convinced that it’s right for them.

But we’ve all had clients or potential clients come to us and say, I need this thing. And you’re like, nah, you don’t need that thing. You have that problem. But that’s not the thing to solve the problem. The doctor’s not going to go, you say you need a knee replacement. Okay then, let’s do it. They’re going to diagnose for treating.

Have you thought about other ways to achieve the same thing? I ask this question all the time and they’re like, not really. Okay. Well let’s explore that because you might not need me at all. Like, what a reassuring thing to hear from someone trying to sell you something, right? You might not need me. Oh, thank you for saying so or whatever.
So what is the consequence of just not doing anything like this? Usually there is a big consequence, and I’ll tell you what it is and that’s the way you get the yes. Right. So it’s what’s the consequence of not getting a new website or not doing this campaign or whatever else it is that you do? The consequences, obviously lack of sales, continue to be stagnant, lack of growth, whatever it might be.

But by asking the question, if they say, well nothing at all really, CEO is new, said we should probably just do the website again because he wants to change it. Is that really a client you want, is that really job you want? Because they’re not going to care about it enough. They’re not going to be enthusiastic. There’s going to be problems all the way through it.

So the consequence of not doing this at all allows you to feel, to be presented as an expert, and you have to really want it. You have to really feel like if there is no consequence of doing this, I don’t want to work with them because I only care about doing meaningful work. This is a really good one to end on that conversation.

So if we were talking to each other a year from now, things have gone really well for your business. What’s happened in that time? Just let them like ponder it and be genuinely interested and they’ll say, usually they don’t speak straight away. So you have to shut the fuck up. You have to shut up. So be nice, but strict. This is a good one. You’re not a doormat. Which means you don’t say anything to get the sale, because you have your own standards. Experts are empathetic, but they don’t let it distract them from the right thing to do. Which means I am an expert. I do care about you. I do want the right outcome for you.

But I’m not going to let you encroach on my standards and my rules. Right? So if you are a doctor, you’re not going to be like, okay, we’ll just do it in half the time, it’ll be fine. So your job is to mediate. You need to be willing to walk away, which means, like, you need to be here and say, if this is not a right fit for these two businesses, then that’s fine.

That’s okay. And that can be really hard when you need the money. It can be really hard when you want to grow the business. It can be really, really difficult when you’re looking at your bank account going, I could really do with that money. But it’s not, there’s a few red flags here that I’m not so sure about, not so great.

So if you’ve got concerns, you should tell them. Do you say, I’m actually not sure the budget is high enough for what you need here so we should talk about whether or not we reduce the project or if you can find budget from elsewhere. That feels risky. If it was like, oh no, I’m going to upset the sale, especially if they’re like, yeah, that sounds all really good.

We’ve got five grand to spend and you’re thinking it’s more like ten. And that’s when you can accidentally feel like, oh no, I don’t want to lose this and you end up doing it for five or whatever, so tell them it’s fine. Actually, the budget’s not right or actually it’s not quite the way we do it, the way you’re asking for.

So we can talk about that, have to be willing to walk away and dig deeper on shallow answers. So if they say, oh, well, we just need a new website, why is that? Or we just need to do this ad campaign. What is it about that? Oh, you know, we just want to grow the business, figure out what it is.

Because if it’s not a really compelling reason to do that, then you might have another solution that they can take advantage of, even if that’s not the thing you do. And that’s important. Don’t do the thing you do just because they said they need that. So applying your own rules, really good is set non-negotiables before a sales call.
We’ve all been on a sales call, or has anyone not been on sales call before? But we’ve had conversations where we’re in the moment and we get asked a really difficult question or something like, can we just do like 20% off or can we reduce the price, it’s not in budget. And if you’re not setting your non-negotiables, you’re more tempted to be like, yeah, okay.

Yeah. I mean, I really want the sale so. So you need to set and practice. So it might be something like, no discounting, no free work, no work without a written brief, no unrealistic deadlines, no dictating of specific times or no Microsoft Teams. Right. It might be like if those are all things that you’re like, I’m not going to work with you based on all these things or some of these things, then you have to be prepared to say no to those things, and that might lose you the sale.

But there are always things that we have that I’m like, I’m just not willing to go there. And it makes it far less likely that you give in before, by practicing. You can use the ‘its policy’ line, even if you’re a company of one. This is really cool, yeah it’s not our company policy to do that. And I use it all the time.

They go, okay. They don’t challenge it because it’s company policy. You could be like, I’m sorry. It’s all here in the contract, it’s written down, our company says no, oh okay, it’s not me, it’s the company, company policy. Sorry. Even if it’s just you. That’s all sort of like about being nice but strict. Applying your own rules, setting your standards, not hiding your objections.

We want to be empathetic, but we want to be firm. And now it’s about leading and reassuring. So we go to a doctor to say, okay, great. I’ve done a thorough diagnostic. I’m now certain of the path that we should take. And this is that path. If they say, it’s, you know, going to be an operation on Tuesday.

Okay, see you then. You need more detail than that right? So what we want is to lead the client through a clear process. And that actually helps you get the sale. So you can say before a proposal or before anything, you say this is our process. This is how we’ve done it. And it’s quite nice if you give it a bit of a unique, not necessarily name, but more just clarity.

Like these are the steps that we follow. This is how it works. And be detailed, like be quite detailed about how it works, when things happen, when the expectations are what is expected from them. Because I often do this, is I feel like if I put a load of expectations on their side, then they’re going to be like, it’s too much work for us. I don’t want to do it. So, but that’s really important that you say, these are the rules, this is how it goes, and this is why I’m good at this, because we do it properly. And answer questions before they ask them. So they say things like, you know, if you get to the point where they say, okay, fine.

Yeah. So but what do we need to like, what do we need to give you first, or how does this work? It’s almost a bit too late because you’re kind of not, you’re then reacting and your expertise is not being shown and you’re sort of saying, oh yeah, that question. Okay. So it’s almost like trying to preempt what those questions will be through practice and repetition of sales calls and saying, okay, those are the questions I get asked.

I’ll bring them in upfront so they don’t have to ask them. It’s really, really useful, and feel comfortable with your value. So if you’ve done all of this, if you’ve been genuine and objective, if you are an expert, if you are genuinely trying to do the right thing for them, then feeling comfortable with your value is going to be easier because you’re sort of like, I’m doing the right thing.
I’m not conceding anything I shouldn’t. I’m not discounting. I’m not kind of like, I’ll figure it out when I get there, etc. because you are amazing, right? But you actually have to be amazing. You can’t just be like, yeah, I’m amazing. I believe in myself, because without actually being able to do what’s right for them and having that conscience and having that ability to say, yeah, I can hold my head up high and say, this is a right fit.

This is absolutely right for them. If you get to that point where, like, I know this is right for them, no doubt in my mind this is what they need. They need me. You can stand to them and go, you need to hire me, and they can feel the genuineness from you, rather than saying, yeah, we can do that, is that something you want to do, you say, no, you need to hire me, like you need to hire me.

Imagine being able to say that, like I can feel it, right? If you had a magic coin, if everybody touched they’d immediately, like, all their problems would be solved or something, you’d be running around your friends being like, touch the coin. Touch it. Come on. You need to do this, now. That kind of conviction is what we’re aiming for. But it has to come from a place of genuineness.

And so value and being comfortable with that, and saying this is the price, is reinforced by all of that stuff. So pricing is really interesting because most people are like, money, it’s some money. Can we just, can I just, send the invoice and then you don’t look at it and I don’t look at it, and we just pretend that it isn’t just money.

Okay, fine. But now we have to bring up pricing ourselves. We have to bring it up first. Should we talk about money, should we talk about pricing? It’s important that we do that. Otherwise, if we get to the end, and we’ve spent half an hour with someone and then they say, I’ve got 4 pounds to spend. What a waste. So when should a client first see or hear your price?

A. Your website marketing, could be difficult, right?

B. During a sales call. Out loud. What? Pound sign. Out loud. In a proposal. That’s the one where most people put it. They just go, uh, put that in there, send it off, go to bed and wait for the ultimate, and obvious and inevitable rejection. Actually, I’ll just take, I’ll just take 500 off.

No, because otherwise they might not. Yeah, I’ll just take five. Take the five off. Just 1000.

Much more likely. If ever you get to the point where you feel like you’re going to do that, drop it down. You have to raise it up by the equivalent amount. That’s my rule. If I get to a point where I’m like, oh, it’s a bit low, okay, now I’ve got to raise it by that amount. Okay. And then you really do go to bed for two days.

So the answer is all three really. So it’s a bit of a trick question. I think that you should try and have a broad range on your website and marketing, because otherwise you end up with loads of inquiries and things. People with no money at all. During a sales call, you can give a narrow range and this is something that you have to practice.
And in a proposal you can then obviously give exact fees. But what we don’t want is someone to have this expectation, your price is here, and then you send a proposal, you’ve put all this work in, and then they go, oh, that’s not what we expected. Even if they have the budget right, they might just have something in mind.

So you want to bring that person along with you, and I like your ranges rather than from, because if you say from five grand, they think five grand. You say from ten grand, they think ten grand. And when you present a proposal for five grand more than that, they say, oh, it’s more than we thought, but if it’s 5 to 10 and you put in eight, they go, okay, cool.

That’s not the highest number we’ve seen. Really, really useful. But you have to practice. You have to practice this in the mirror, you have to say, how much do you charge? Most people go, it depends on the, things like that. I like to try and practice this. And so you gather enough information. You’re an expert.

You know what you’re doing. You know which questions to ask to get a really good sense of the project itself or the campaign or whatever it is doing. And if it’s a retainer and you have a day rate, that’s even easier because it’s set. You can say, let’s say you charge 800 pound a day. You can say, yeah, for this type of work, I charge 800 pound a day.

Then don’t talk. Don’t speak again. Give the price and do not speak, even if it takes ten minutes for them to speak back. Do not speak because you have to shut the heck up. Because if they don’t speak and you jump in, the only thing you’re going to say is something to soften that tension. And that is always going to be something like, but we could like work on some stuff, you know, if that budget doesn’t fit or it could be, so it’s not about like getting them to speak first is about making sure you don’t say something to break the tension, because you’re going to say it’s 6,000 pounds.

It’s roughly between 6 and 10,000 pounds.

Can you feel that? It’s rough. 6 to 10,000 pounds.

Oh. It’s horrible. Silence is horrible. So you want to jump in. You want to say, but, you know, like budgets and there are different ways of doing it. And we can like reduce down, start with something smaller and then maybe upgrade over time. They never upgrade over time. And then you can just, it’s all just going to come lower.

So those are kind of like the main points. I know it’s a bit of a rush through everything. I’m unmasking, that’s ADHD for you. But we’re going to go through it, so be an expert. Exercise objectivity as in, be that mediator. Give them some space. Ask thoughtful questions. Be nice but strict. Don’t hide your objections.

Apply your own rules. Lead and reassure and feel comfortable with your value. If you can go through all of these things, then I think you become this expert advisor, this guide, rather than a sales person, that feels better for you. It also feels better for the person you’re selling to, and it also makes you more likely to get the sale.
Because they can feel that energy that’s very different. They can feel that like, this person actually cares about my outcome independently of their own. And if you can get someone to feel that, then they’re going to be like, I trust this person. I really trust this person. So there’s some good stuff in here. This is not bad, but it’s a bit one track.

But not all old white men are bad. I hope to become one. So this is my hero. His name is Gandalf. He’s from the Harry Potter films. And he’s. I don’t understand. So basically, he’s, like, the ultimate good example of an old white man. So he’s not selfish, you know, he’s an expert. He guides these people through this horrendous task, which is to take a ring and throw it in a volcano.

And it’s like everyone’s trying to kill them and stuff, and he’s just like this, it’s okay, we’re going to do this. So the better way that I think is like, really like representative of him. So like all of these things that I’ve put together I think really like work nicely to like represent my hero who is Gandalf. So all you need to do is like be Gandalf.

And then you’ll remember, that. Thank you very much.
This is me. This is my company. Brand new notebook, inspired, I know. We do web design consulting and things like that. And you can connect on LinkedIn with this. This is a QR code, which is when you do is put your hand on that and then it will go straight into your phone. If it’s in your pocket, it has to be in a pocket.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.